Disgrace

[Lynx54321]

Sureshot, good post to be fair I was over the top in my critiscism I did not mean to in anyway belittle the hard work that has been done on the game.

It is afterall a good game, but for me I wont be buying this game just because I dont personally beleive that it is worth it but I will be hoping to come back to the series next year or the next which if they have improved as much as you think this one has over last years should be worth the money.

[FM13]

Sureshot,

Forget the words that were used which have annoyed you but i am afraid I would have to agree in principle; not the verbiage, of the complaints raised about ICC2010.

Yes!!! It is a small team and cricket is not a giant market but objectively speaking, the internal pride in releasing a 'new' version does not appear to be present as much as it should be.

For example, ICC2010 introduced aussie league and repetitive T20WC and that is enough to call this game a new version to be honest. going back ICC2009, 1cc2008 and going back all the way to ICC-1, from which time i have been a customer, there have been a few reasonable updates which justify calling each one of them a new version.

However, there are two sides of the game which annoy us the loyal fans. One is the database updates, which so many of us feel should be free if that is the only dominant thing is a few of these 'new' version. Second is the shameless lack of resistance towards fixing even the simplest of game play errors that continue to bug us. Like ICC2010 is the third straight version where the umpire gives a hybrid legbye/bye signal for both. I haven't seen a single catch in whole of 10-12 years inside 30 yards apart from slip/gully/keeper. Run out / stumping / running between wicket / pitch / stadiums / crowd/ commentary/ lack of innovative strokes/ intelligent keeper / ball speed / etc etc are the things that continue to remain the same and silly.

To be a genuine NEW version, one needs to justify the following:

1. Database up to date: in every series, we need two or three patches before that gets sorted out. (Mohammad Yousaf is either reitired or should be available as to date)
2. In Game additions: Fine, we are given Aussie league and WC
3. Removing errors of Last version: The ICC team doesn't seem to care about that like the umpire signal thing.
4. Aesthetics: Zero change since going 3D. Same run-up, weight, height of every player. Same speed of every ball, runner. Same stadiums and pitches and in fact, you don't even know which city you are playing in.

This post contains no offensive words and so us loyal fans deserve your un-biased reply to the above.

[StanH]

I must agree

As a long time strong supporter of ICC from its inception,I must agree with FM13 and his comments. None of us what to be critical of the effort put into the game,nor do we overlook the lack of staff. However "business is business' and when we outlay money each year looking for the changes and they are not evident, or as prominent as anticipated, the dissapointment sets in.

Our "love of cricket" propells us into seeking the "ideal game" and our desire to have this game captivate our imagination is the motivation. However as you have seen... many still have issues that were ignored and others feel the game lacks the depth required.

One of my silly little gripes is the lack of realism in the graphics, with no fielders wearing hats or caps! yes I recognize its minutia and shallow but nevertheless disconcerting in replays. Similarly when a batman plays a shot that bears no relation to reality, and every bowler is a carbon copy of the previous one with little evident change it causes some irritation.

However that aside, the main gripe is a lack of "real management" in the ongoing leadership of the team.The training aspect is very limiting and the ability to influence seems inconsequential.The influence of factors such as weather,pitches,fatigue and the like are not communicated in the game but alluded to ...yet we have little evidence of the influence which includes the speed of the ball bowled.

Yet we take what we can,pay our money and enjoy the fact we have a "cricket management game"...what I think we want is THE Cricket Management game..and for nearly ten years we have been on this quest.It seems however there is still a long way to go!

I recognize that there are financial implications and wish we could get around this to allow some of the contributers to the forum to have a crack at "modding" as well as updates and patches...I would pay for some of these if they enhanced the game, and surely you as its distributers would benefit from volunteers who would improve the game?

[Sureshot]

I think we will accept that the 3D engine is very limited in what it can do, in an ideal world I'd love for us to be able to upgrade to an improved engine in the near future, new graphical implementations are long and not a small change in any way.

Bugs - The umpire bug is something I've only seen mentioned on the forums this year and it's been noted. If a bug isn't reported, then you can't really blame us for not fixing it. Admittedly our releases of late haven't been that smooth and we'll try rectify that in the future, again, I go back to the point of it not being a full-time team, which makes it tremendously difficult when you can't focus on just one thing, but yes, some are just bad mistakes on our part. Most games have bugs in them when released though, it's no excuse, it's just a matter of fact about the nature of gaming.

I've put forward several ideas of improving the management aspect of the game, including taking some from here for the next versions.

I can't agree in any way with the deterioration of pitches and weather not being communicated, a part of the match interface is dedicated to this.

The database is something that's much harder to get right than many people give credit for, each year we get our data at about the beginning of April, roughly, then it's up to Dean (Aus5892) to prepare all the code, team changes, new players, etc. With Dean focusing on the Australian and myself with the rest of the database, this year the database file reads at about 37,000 lines of stats and code, that's a lot for 2 people to work on in just a couple of months, indeed we were ready for first pass in 2 weeks. It's also very subjective. Not to mention how many players move around in England and some news you just can't find, I didn't know about Henderson losing Kolpak status till we released.

The last thing we want to do is release buggy games, we would love to be able to let you guys beta test it for us, but we don't want reviews coming out on a half completed game, thus our hesitance, although I did ask one person this year from here, I think we'll try and use more of you next year, but it won't be open, it'd be on a personal invitation as your feedback is always valuable to us.

We've had some really interesting ideas this year and I'm quite excited as to what we can add for the future to the game, it would also be great if the iPhone and PSP versions take off, then we can look at maybe some other platforms in the future too.

[StanH]

Encouragement

Sureshot,

I think one issue must be affirmed.We are grateful for the game because we love cricket ...and rather than have a game in which scores are based on ones skill of fast fingers (referring to other games)...we seek a more cerebral version where management is the basis.

My, and I am sure most of us, desire to be part of a "vision" that pursues the "perfect" cricket management game, a bar that I am sure will be too high for all, neverthess a noble purpose for most.

Therefore we want to not simply nitpick and complain but encourage you...because from what I see you want the same.

[dancingmongoose]

with the exception of database errors, you shouldnt really give too much criticism unless you know what actually goes on behind the scenes. i am doing a course in programming and 3d graphics and stuff like that and i know just how hard it can be. and i dont think too many of the big offenders know anything about making a game. id like to see them try and make one better.

[Scritty]

I think this argument is what philosophers like to call "ad hominem"

The fact that there was little resource to make the changes that were desired is of little or no concern to those that want them implemented.

Conversely, making changes that would bankrupt the team by delaying the game or adding too much cost with the risk of little return is not an option for the developers.

Arguing these two points is a waste of time.
The game is inexpensive (am I the only one who has noticed that in the last 6 months all new games in the major outlets have gone up from £30 to £35) £15 is very reasonable, and would not buy an expansion pack for many games - let alone a stand alone game itself.

Against this, if the game is not what you want, then you have the opportunity to put your point across in the hope that the next raft of affordable improvements includes some or all of those you would like to see implemented.

Fighting on pseudo moral grounds of "rip off" and "disgrace" is buttering your tie instead of your toast.

Let's all get a grip, there's a free trial. If you don't like it don't buy it. If you did like it, then what's the problem now?
If you bought it not knowing what it contained, then don't do it again. Get the demo. Chill out. It's summer.

Paul

[Sureshot]

Sureshot,

I think one issue must be affirmed.We are grateful for the game because we love cricket ...and rather than have a game in which scores are based on ones skill of fast fingers (referring to other games)...we seek a more cerebral version where management is the basis.

My, and I am sure most of us, desire to be part of a "vision" that pursues the "perfect" cricket management game, a bar that I am sure will be too high for all, neverthess a noble purpose for most.

Therefore we want to not simply nitpick and complain but encourage you...because from what I see you want the same.

We want to make the best game we can, we want to make the game you want, that's why we have this forum and why I try and respond to as much of it as I can, so the feedback can be analysed and fed back in to the development process if it so fits.

Constructive criticism is important, a good point of reference for this would be Scritty's and the stats thread/idea just after our digital release. That thread helped immensely, of course we have our own ideas.

Scritty - On the topic of expansion packs, I really enjoyed Fallout 3, even with the really annoying graphical issues, the expansion packs for that total £40...

[aus5892]

To be a genuine NEW version, one needs to justify the following:

1. Database up to date: in every series, we need two or three patches before that gets sorted out. (Mohammad Yousaf is either reitired or should be available as to date)
2. In Game additions: Fine, we are given Aussie league and WC
3. Removing errors of Last version: The ICC team doesn't seem to care about that like the umpire signal thing.
4. Aesthetics: Zero change since going 3D. Same run-up, weight, height of every player. Same speed of every ball, runner. Same stadiums and pitches and in fact, you don't even know which city you are playing in.

We appreciate the constructive criticism. I'll respond to a few bits here:

1. It's impossible I'm afraid for our small team to get everything right. We scour the internet (literally) to find as many details about teams, players and stats as we can and then put it all together. It can take half an hour just to do one player sometimes. Obviously we will make some mistakes and that's why we offer you free patches to correct the mistakes, as identified by you.

4. I should point out that this part isn't true though. Every player actually has an exact height and there are different body shapes we use as well.

[Scritty]

Scritty - On the topic of expansion packs, I really enjoyed Fallout 3, even with the really annoying graphical issues, the expansion packs for that total £40...

Still a good gamer though. Playing a little Starcraft (the original) in readyness for SC2 in a ocuple of weeks.

Just re-bought SC - 2:99 unused (i would say new - but I get the impression it has been on a shelf for about 6 years, so that would be stretching it a bit)

Good luck all

Scritty

[FM13]

@ aus5892

Thank you for responding to my "constructive criticism".

So at least we, long time loyal fans, have manged to get our point registered. To be honest the "long time loyal fans" are now too dated to try out any other huge action packed releases of the games that come out these days and wish to rather stick to our beloved simple and management games like the ICC series but at the same time, do not wish to be bored.

So hopefully there are some more obvious changes and keep up the good work.

[Dobcheev]

All valid points, chaps - but if the money ain't there to invest in game developement....

I'm afraid I won't be buying this years model of ICC - I really enjoyed '09.... for about 2 weeks, when it dawned on me that once you get over the initial buzz of playing the latest version of the game, you realise that the game still has the same lack of depth as all the previous ones.

I won't repeat all the the previous examples of what's lacking in the game as they're all good. What I found paricularly odd was that none of the other county ( A.I. ) matches ended in draws, which, given the fitfull weather we suffer in the UK ( my club, Lancs, is a prime example - too many draws due to rain, which is why we've always struggled to win the chamionship ), is hardly realitsic. Surely it dosen't take millions to fix an elementary A.I problem like this ?

Like it or lump it, cricket is a comparitively niche sport in the great scheme of things - but a good example of how to do an absorbingly deep game of a niche sport is ' Pro Cycling Manager '. Training staff, scouts, medics, sponsors, equipment, team goal bonuses, riders getting the hump if you don't treat them right, lovely graphics & loads more. You can't tell me Cyanide Studios have got FM's staff & budgeting levels surely ?

My point is this: if standerd game mechanics are in place ( & have been for a long time now ), is it beyond Childish Things to incorporate the ONE ( any one ) major step forward in the ICC game experience which will make fans say once again: ' I'm definately going to shell-out on the this years new game ' ?

[6ry4nj]

Sorry to revive such a contentious thread. I wasn't sure whether I could start a new thread and still quote this one.

I haven't seen a single catch in whole of 10-12 years inside 30 yards apart from slip/gully/keeper. Run out / stumping / running between wicket / pitch / stadiums / crowd/ commentary/ lack of innovative strokes/ intelligent keeper / ball speed / etc etc are the things that continue to remain the same and silly.

I admit that it's not enough, but I have actually twice experienced catches by close-in fielders in single-saving rather than catching positions. Memorable occasions indeed! One was Steve Harmison in a Test(I think) against Sri Lanka in ICC06. Iirc he was somewhere near point, about half way to the ring. I had another one in ICC09 in a county game - don't remember the details - except that he was behind square on leg. He was quite close in, but at least twice as far away as the regulation forward short leg who was also in place.

On the other hand, I must say that edged shots often do go a long way in the air. Hopefully if you put the fieldsman where the shot goes, they'll catch it. They'd probably need a tad more mobility than they currently have, though.

EDIT: On another of my hobby-horses, I'm fairly sure in ICC06 - I once saw a throw from the outfield...taken at the bowler's end!

Gosh, it's suddenly gone quiet. Oh, no wonder. They've all fainted!/EDIT

The other thing I wanted to comment on is lack of innovative strokes. I suppose you mean reverse-sweeps, Dilscoops and things like that. They'd be nice, but some of the strokes we do have are a little too innovative for my liking. The main one I would like to see gone is the backing-away cross-batted waft at head height. If only that worked as well in real life as it does in the game. Never fails to go for 4 or 6! I know we speak of a master batsman wielding the willow like a wand - but this is ridiculous (wanted to use the alternative Harry Potter spelling but couldn't remember it groan). And everybody's doing it!

The other main improvement needed to shot animation is: grace! There are very few follow-throughs beyond the horizontal (a lot barely get beyond the vertical). And I don't recall seeing a graceful front-foot ("off his toes") shot on the leg-side. How I miss them (sigh)...

1. Database up to date: in every series, we need two or three patches before that gets sorted out. (Mohammad Yousaf is either reitired or should be available as to date)

As I never get tired of saying, if you can only do one database patch a year, please leave it a couple more weeks until we've discovered all the glaring glitches. After all, mistakes in player ratings - which can be critical for realism and therefore gameplay in general - can't even be seen using the interface provided. I wouldn't want the game to include an editor, and I like it that you try to make editing as hard as possible. However, if it's down to us the players to remedy the Brett Pelser-sized boo-boos, we need time to check out more of the database than is available in the game as is.

3. Removing errors of Last version: The ICC team doesn't seem to care about that like the umpire signal thing.

I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder if the team have anyone currently with the expertise used in the highlights. Perhaps those people were in the team for a one-off period back in 06/07??? I heard somewhere that that upgrade cost a lot of moolah to produce.

[Sureshot]

The Umpire signal issue is caused by the fact we don't have the right animation. It is annoying for all of us, I have stated this before so we aren't ignoring it, if it's something we can fix, we will fix it.

As also said we are looking in to improving player abilities, given the size of the player database, it would be reasonable for me to say errors will always slip through, also a lot of the time it's subjective. Again, we'll look to improve this process next year and we have some ideas for it.

[Coyote]

Back to the point of budget.

You need manpower to have all of the domestic leagues demanded. To get manpower you need budget.

The most important things, I feel, are the associate nations and IPL. Get them in, and the rest can come year by year.